What is dark social anyway? We’re learning about what it is and how to harness it in today’s episode of Closing Time. Hi, my name is Chip House. I’m CMO here at Insightly and welcome to a Closing Time the show for go-to-market leaders. Today I’m joined by Shama Hyder. She’s the CEO of Zen Media, a bestselling author, and a speaker. Welcome, Shama. Thanks so much for having me, Chip. Excited to be here on Closing Time. It’s super great to have you and so I kicked off the teaser there today with dark social. Can you tell us what is dark social? So dark social, well, for starters, it’s not something new, but I think we’ve reached a certain tipping point with it, if you will. So what is very simply means is, how information is consumed and shared doesn’t happen where companies can see it, where leaders can see it. It happens behind the scenes, hence the term dark social. A really easy way to think about this is actually through an example, right? So, Chip, you and I connect a ton on LinkedIn. We, you know, look at each other’s posts, things like that. Sure. Let’s say I look at an article that you shared. Now, I may or may not comment on that, but I may look at it and I may send you a LinkedIn direct message, or I might take a link to that article and share it in Slack with my team. Now, in these ways, I’ve shared the content, I’ve consumed them. But if you are looking at that and saying, hey, is anybody reading this like, I wonder how this resonated, there’s no way you’d be able to tell just looking at that content.. And so much of what happens today is is within that dark social realm where the way things are shared, the way information is spread, the things people are saying about companies and individuals and leaders, they’re all happening behind the scenes. I think that’s always been the case. But now, again, you see this at a tipping point. And so the way we even use social, the way we need to engage our buyers has to change dramatically. It makes perfect sense. So, dark social, a lot of it happens but we just don’t see it, right? I mean, that’s part of the reason it’s called dark social. It just happens invisibly behind the scenes. And so how do we know it exists? So what what are some of the markers that it exists? Where does it show up? It shows up at the end of the day when someone reaches out and says, you know, I read this article or your team or my team shared this link to this podcast that you did. But here’s the thing, you have to ask, and I feel like sometimes that answer is not, it’s a little too simple, right? It’s like, how do I know my marketing is working? Ask, ask your customers, ask your prospects, ask your leads, and then you get kind of this like, what do you mean ask? It can’t be that simple. And yet look at how many companies don’t ask, don’t ask their customers, don’t ask their leads, don’t train their salespeople to actually ask, how are you finding us? And, you know, and so that’s really where you get a lot of good data because look at how many people listen to Closing Time, and are watching this and they’re going to know about Insightly through that. But if you don’t ask them that when they come to Insightly, because what are they going to do?. They’re going to watch this. You’re going to say, hey, that looks cool.. I wonder what they’re about. Looks like a SaaS platform, whatever. Where are they going to go? They’re going to go to Google. They’re going to type it in, and then they’re going to go to your site. Now, as a CMO, if you’re looking at your analytics and you look at attribution, it’s going to say they found you on Google Direct Search, or they searched by name, branded search or direct search, whatever you want to call it. But that’s not actually the truth. See, Google has, search engines in general, but I’ll just say Google for the sake of simplicity. I mean, that’s changed tremendously. Because it used to be starting point. It’s like where you start your search. Now it’s just the final gateway. It’s like where you go to get to where you’re wanting to go, right? It’s now really the super information highway, if you will. Before it was different. That’s where you started to find things. Now you find things in a million different places, on TikTok, on Instagram, podcasts, LinkedIn, and then you go to Google to get to that destination or, you know, follow a thread to wherever it may take you. That makes perfect sense. We actually, Shama, you had given that tip to me months back and we updated one of our forms to add the, “How did you hear about us?” And it’s already providing great data, right? It’s different than your attribution software will tell you that it’s coming via organic or direct traffic to the website. Yeah, that’s so awesome to hear, Chip. And we see that across the board. You know, in PR, which is a lot of obviously that you know, that we do. It’s funny because so much of when you ask someone and they come in, they’re like, oh, I read about you on Forbes or I read an article or my CFO shared this piece, you know, whatever it is. So I think especially for third party advocacy, for PR, for the things that you can’t track as easily, that qualitative data is just gold. Yeah, no question. And you talked about, hey, just why don’t you just talk to your customers, right? And a lot of this comes down to how people buy. And I think it’s not in just a B2B setting, but B2C also, obviously research happens, websites get visited, social media gets visited, contents from other people get looked at and you know, so this B2B buyer’s journey per se has multiple steps. And much of it, you know, we don’t see necessarily so we have to be in the places where our potential customers are. And so, is there, you talked about obviously getting that insight from talking to your customers, Shama, but how do you think about optimizing content for buyers as they’re kind of progressing down that journey? Yeah, great. Great question, Chip. So here’s how to think about buyers progressing through the journey. So I want you to imagine a triangle.. All right. So heavy side up. You’ve got a broad triangle, little, like pointy side down. You’ve got a triangle. And so two thirds of that triangle is is research, dark social, buyers not reaching out. And actually, if I was really being accurate, it would be about four fifths of that triangle that tiny little tip at the bottom is sales. That’s when they reach out. And so you’ve got data from everywhere from Forrester to Gartner, and the research varies I mean,. I’ve seen stats from 60% to 90%, 60% on up, to at what point do buyers reach out to the company? So how much of the buying process do they get through on their own? So, you know, with Forrester it’s 64% they’re through that buying cycle before they ever talk to sales.. I’ve seen numbers such as high as 90% they’re through that process.. And you just put yourself in a customer’s shoes when you’re buying something, Chip, or I’m buying something. Do we go to the salesperson, you know, and again, to your point, B2B or B2C, you’re going to the dealership. You’re, you know, like you already know.. You’ve already done your research let’s say, to buy a car or whatever it is, you know. SaaS, B2B, it’s no different the way buyers are buying. They want to do the research on their own. This is where third party advocacy comes in. This is where dark social comes to play, like they’re already being educated. Right? So now I’m going to connect the dots to you for content. Now, imagine another triangle and flip that. So the base is at the bottom. The majority of this at most companies is sales and a little bit at the bottom, the sliver is marketing. So you can see how inverted the actual marketing sales process is compared to how buyers are actually buying. But you get the picture right. I mean, what is going to what’s really going to help these buyers move them down that journey? What’s going to help educate them, nurture them, create awareness, create like that, you know, create those connections in their brain? That’s all marketing. That’s not sales.. They’re not ready for that yet. And yet if you look at how much sales gets pushed out, it’s just funny. So we’re not, most companies are not doing it right. And that’s why there’s a lot of frustration. That’s why there’s a lot of frustration between sales and marketing. That’s why there’s a lot of frustration between, Why are we not meeting our numbers? Because the way buyers are buying has just changed dramatically. You know, and you can just ask your customers, ask your prospects, do you want to be led or do you want to lead? And they will tell you, hands down, no,. I want to lead. Like they want to do the research. They don’t you know, look, it’s the old adage, nobody wants to be sold but everybody wants to buy. So positioning yourself in that way is absolutely key. The other thing I always think about is the 95-5 rule, which is so crucial and this came out of the so a lot of research from the LinkedIn B2B Institute and they work with another institute on this and they found that 95% of your market is just not in the market to buy at any given time. Only 5% is. But the way we do sales and the way we try to do things is we try to preach to that 95%. Well, they’re not ready. Right. Like the point is that the majority of the things you do are going to be for that 95%. So when they’re ready to come to that 5%, they think of you, they’re going to buy. And it’s the opposite. The way most companies approach that, is they act like everybody is in that 5%. So 100% in your market. And that’s just not true. Which is why even with sales, no matter how much you try to sell someone who is not ready, they’re not going to buy because they’re just not where they need to be. But if you try to educate, if you try to build goodwill, if you are the go-to-market leader in your category, when they enter that 5%, inevitably you will get that business. So if I’m a salesperson and I can kind of establish myself as that trusted expert, that’s what you’re talking about. Absolutely. But even before sales, you know, marketing if in marketing you are establishing that trust, the problem is most marketers today are forced to do salespeople jobs, which look ten years ago, 15 years ago, it used to be really hard to get someone’s contact information. Right. And so, like today, it’s so easy for marketing to serve up. Like here’s an email address and here’s someone’s name and sales go at it. It’s completely I mean, the focus on kind of that just the quantity of leads or just we need contact information that really shouldn’t even be marketing’s job, seals can pull that it’s very easy to get contact information, you have a clear sense of your ICP you can figure out who belongs in that there’s so much data that we have today that lets you do that. Marketing’s job should be something really different marketing’s job should be for that 95%. Sales job is that 5%. marketing’s job is that 95% that’s not ready yet but when they’re ready, when they cross that little bridge you’re the brand they want to think about and most companies don’t think about it that way. And so marketing just ends up being, you know, kind of a collateral factory, you know, on demand collateral factory for sales, sadly, right? Like, hey, I need this. I need a brochure,. I need a PowerPoint, I need a deck, I need a white paper,. I need X, Y, Z, without really and again, all catering to that 5% when really it’s that 95%. That’s the much bigger market share. Yeah, so much of inbound marketing that the B2B world has been doing for the past ten plus years, it’s all been based about getting that contact information right and so that’s what marketing is doing, is providing that lead via a download or something like that. And now what you’re saying it sounds like Shama is, hey, the marketing’s job is to kind of create that awareness, create that brand affinity and kind of create the demand by having a voice to the 95 versus just the five. Yeah, absolutely, Chip. And how do you go about doing that? Right. So creating that affinity for brand,. I mean, not unlike what you’re doing right here on Closing Time, providing value, but realizing you’re not pushing your message down people’s throat. You’re not like again because the way people are doing the research, let’s say they even give you their contact info, but where are they going to figure out whether they’re going to do business with you? Right. It’s that old adage of yes, you know, what’s more powerful what you say about you or what other people say about you? And so that’s where so much of PR and earned media come into play. What are they looking at? Those peers that they’re talking to, influencers. That third party advocacy,. I really believe, will continue to be the differentiator between winners and losers. Shama, that’s very helpful. Thank you for that. So I’m going to bring it back around to dark social. And Closing Time is for go-to-market leaders and a lot of sales leaders also and salespeople watch this show and how can they best think about leveraging dark social to build their own personal brand so they become that relevant choice for the 5% that’s in market and ready to buy? Yeah. So great question, Chip. You know, for sales folks listening out there, I think your role, by the way, these days is incredibly important because, and look, I never had a salesperson look at me and say like, I’ve never known any salesperson out there to be like, boy,. I wish my job was a little bit harder. You know, the beautiful thing is if marketing is allowed to do their job, sales’ job becomes incredibly easier. So here’s here’s what I would say. Understand that dark social isn’t a platform or a strategy or a like even a tactic. The idea of dark social is that everything that you’re sharing and doing and saying is being consumed, is being shared, but don’t judge yourself too harshly if you’re not getting the instant hand raises and don’t fall into the trap, which again, you see so much on LinkedIn for the sake of engagement, people will post things just to get those comments and whatnot because that’s not really what you’re looking for. I just hate to see smart salespeople get disheartened because they feel like, well, I’m not getting enough comments or I’m not this must not be working because you just know that that’s not how people are consuming your information either. And so the the same way with companies, the way that you are making your mark, how you’re establishing your brand, the things that you’re saying, the way that you’re sharing, you know, you might go on a prospect’s profile and you might comment on their content over six months and you may think this guy doesn’t know who I am, but then when they reach out, they’re like,. Of course they know who you are, right? Of course they’ve seen your comments, but they’re not going to say, Hey, you know, Sally, thanks so much for those comments. Boy, you sure are a great salesperson. Like, that’s not the way affinity gets built. So I do think interestingly enough, a lot of the old school rules of sales apply, you know, creating value, being a good human being, you know, pointing people in a different direction when you’re not the right fit. These are the things that build your reputation, but doing them consistently and, you know, in public formats, sharing value, and I don’t mean kind of like those little stories or, I mean,. I think LinkedIn is getting smarter, too. So I think people can see through that right where it’s like a maybe a ploy to get some engagement versus being genuine and just sharing your perspective. So whether that’s mentoring other sales folks, whether it’s sharing, you know, a strategy that you found useful, whether it’s again, this is another big one part of what we do when we look at. PR isn’t just here’s your placement but so many times we work with sales team to see how do you use this? OK, your boss was just featured on this podcast or you just got a profile in Inc. or Fast Company. You know your company was mentioned here. How do you use that to move people through the pipeline? So I think it’s things like that, making sure that the things that your company is creating, marketing, PR, earned media, that you are sharing that, that you know how to utilize that. And if you don’t, then those are the questions you should be asking. And if you’re really not given that, then there’s a bigger question you should be asking about, you know, what you guys should be doing because again, sales is really the thing that brings it on home and it should be and that sale’s role. It’s not meant to be marketing, it’s not meant to be, you know, full scale. It’s really meant to be connecting with those people that are ready and making it super easy to to get them to the finish line. And I think that’s the challenge, is for sales to do their job well, marketing has to be able to do their job well. Well, the Shama, thank you for that. I mean, you’re such an expert in this space. And so it’s great to hear you kind of build that idea out for all of the listeners here today. So unfortunately, that’s all we have time for and thank you so much for joining us. Let’s do it again. Thanks for having me, Chip. And thanks to everybody out there for joining us for this episode of Closing Time. Make sure you click subscribe and tick the bell so you don’t miss an episode. Thank you.
